Aunty Lena Perth 1991 by Catherine

 

Transcript of Interview between Catherine Copeland (now Goh) and Lena Mary Munachen (nee Copeland), 1991 for Life Review project, for Behavioural Science Unit, Curtin University. Paper submitted 11/11/91

 

Lena [b 1909]was Catherine's great aunt, her father's, father's sister.

 

This is in Question and Answer format.  Questions in bold, Answers in italics.

 

What was the happiest memory you had as a child?

 

Its a very vivid memory. I don't know about the happiest, but it is a very vivid memory of my staying with my mother [d 1930] and my eldest brother in Kalgoorlie.[was this Lena's eldest brother Theo? Was he old enough to have been postmaster? Was it her mother's eldest brother?]  He was the postmaster of Kalgoorlie.  It was an upstairs-downstairs, 2 storey building, very old.  Its not there now.  And I was mad keen on teddy bears, and I had a teddy bear that my father had given me. It was as big as myself. And my mother was pregnant with brother Gerald and I was up and dressed and had my breakfast and my mother was walking around.  She said “You go out and play”, so I went and got my teddy bear, and I went out onto the verandah, the upstairs verandah at the post office.  And I crawled through the railing, I suppose you would call it railing, and I was walking, hanging on with this huge teddy bear clutched in one arm and walking along hanging on to the side and it was two stories down in to Hannon St, I think in Kalgoorlie.  And this part I am only telling as I was told.  I can remember walking along there, but I can't remember the next bit, but I can remember being told.  They had a fire-engine out because they had to get a ladder up to get me down off this ledge that I was walking along.  Anyway, my mother went to hospital to have my brother Gerald as a result of it, she got so upset.  They went looking for me and couldn't find me, then they saw my dress, through the railing and there I was.  That's quite vivid, that part of walking along the railing, with this teddy bear, it has always been a very vivid memory of Kalgoorlie and my mother being pregnant with my brother Gerald.  However, that's it.

 

Did you have any other brothers and sisters?

 

Oh yes, I didn't have any sisters, I was an only girl.  I had Theo, he was older, and then there was me and then there was Gerald, and then there was, it must have been Colin, and then my mother had a baby named Trevor.  We were living in South Fremantle then, he died of double pneumonia, he was six weeks old, his name was Trevor.  I can vaguely remember that because he, my father had whooping cough at the same time.  He was a tall man and when he whooped he used to crawl up the wall.  I can vaguely recall seeing my father whooping.

 

He was very sick my Dad, and then this brother died of pneumonia and we shifted from South Fremantle to East Fremantle.

 

Because I had ¨C this sounds terrible- I can remember my mother coming home from the hospital with Colin, Dad had had time off work, to look after us kids, Theo, myself and Gerry and it was Colin that mother had had.  And from the time she brought him home he was in my bedroom.  I had to look after him and feed him his bottle in the night and change his pants and pacify him.  And in the morning I would have to get up and bath him, it sounds terrible.  I got up in time to bath him, because my mother was semi-invalid, and then I would have to race off to school, and come back at lunch time and make sure they had food.  It wasn't very far, it couldn't have been or I wouldn't have been back at lunchtime would I?

 

My father came home once and Theo had been fishing and caught a whole lot of fish and my mother was cooking vegetables, we didn't chips in those days.  She said to my father “Did you get paid Tom?” And he said “Yes” and showed her his pay envelope and threw it into the fire.  He put the money on the table and picked it it up and threw it in the fire , he thought the envelope was empty.  They were talking, he pulled it out but of course a lot of it was burnt, so he had to race off down to the local bank so that they could recognise the numbers.  That's quite a vivid memory that bit.

 

What was going to school like

 

I used to walk to and from school, three miles I think, I think it was three there and three back.  It was a one teacher school, and all the classes were in the same room, and each person I presume got the same amount of attention.  I must have have gone to that school for three years.  I started school there (Princess May School)

 

How do you remember WWI and what did it mean to you?

 

Well it meant more to me when it finished.  I can vaguely remember going with my father to concerts they used to have, and we used to put money in to buy like a penny concert type thing, well you wouldn't know, to buy balaclavas and knitted things for the soldiers, I think that was what it was for.

 

First Marriage

 

 

When did you get married?

I married the first time [husband named Thistlethwaite] in WWII. I married a soldier. I can't tell you when that was, but he went away and was a prisoner of war and was killed by the Japanese.  When this happened I went and stayed with Colin [her brother] and Del in Melbourne.

 

I spent a lot of 4 years not knowing whether I was a wife or widow and then to find out I had been a widow for 3 years Colin reckoned I should have a good time.

 

 

What was it like in the Army?

 

Well it was fun, it was great fun.  I went in as a private of course and I did a 3 month refresher course in shorthand typing, because I had been a typist.  I was discharged from that and appointed to go as a typist to Captain G P Wyld at the 3^rd  AWSCORP in Mt Lawley and I went there and lived in barracks at Mt Lawley.  We used to every 6-8 weeks, it was awful as far as I was concerned, have  a parade through the city streets.  They had a bagpipe band and everyone had to march including the girls.  We used to be down river and march up Barrack St, an awful long hill to march up.

 

We used to go to the pictures, they put on films for us at the Ambassador, but half way through the film most of the girls, including me, used to go outside because they were all war films.  We weren't interested in that part of the war.  I didn't want to see people being killed because my husband and 2 brothers [Gerald and Colin] were away and I didn't want to see people being killed.  We used to get into trouble for it but we did it just the same.

 

I had lots of fun when I was in the Army, there was Pearl and Phil and Norma and myself, we were known as the 4 musketeers.  We all used to finish work together about half past five and then we would rush like mad to catch a train either to Fremantle or to Perth, wherever we'd made our minds up that we'd go because there always free dances and free food, all sorts of things for anybody that was in uniform.  It absolutely ruined us, you didn't have to pay, you were in uniform and that was it.

 

I remember one night going from Karakatta to Fremantle (on the train) and we started singing bawdy army songs, and when the train stopped at Cottesloe the stationmaster walked down and said have you girls been singing and this Pearl, she was a pet, said “Oh no, were we were too busy smoking” and he said “Well somebody has been singing bawdy songs and the other people on the train are objecting”.  We never batted an eyelid.  We didn't do it anymore that night , we kept quiet, because we could have got into trouble, because we were in uniform.

 

I enjoyed my life in the Army, I enjoyed what I can remember of it.  Being in the discharge section you saw some very sad things, with men who had been bombed and it had affected their mind, and didn't quite know whether they were going to their wives or what.  Some of it was sad, very sad.

 

I know I upset Del when I first went to Melbourne and I had news of my husband being killed.  I was walking down the street with her, her son Gerald, and her mother and all of a sudden somebody shouted “Thistle, bloody Thistle, what are you doing in Melbourne?”.  That was me, that was what I was known as in the Army then.  There were these 2 men walking down the street, they had seen me but I hadn't seen them.  Del was horrified that they should shriek out and pick me up and kiss me, it was beaut really.

 

I always remember going into Melbourne quite frequently as there was nothing for me to do.  Colin wouldn't let me work in the shop [fruit shop North Rd, Ormond].  I would go to the bank, draw some money out and buy food for tea.  Colin wouldn't let me work, he reckoned he and Del worked, his father-in-law and one of his brother-in-laws [Ray Godfredson]  He didn't mind me working in the kitchen getting a meal.  Del didn't like me working in the shop either.  She was a very good businesswoman when she was young, she ruled those men like a rod of iron, as far as the shop was concerned.

 

 

Second Marriage

 

My Haggis has been dead 6 years this month [month, year?] and we would have been married thirty-eight years, forty-four years since I got married.

 

Children

 

What was it like when you had children?

 

It was pretty grim having the 2 girls [twins, Lena & Sue, b.1947].  Haggis and I lived in a large bedroom, and had the use of a dining room.  Two other people used the ding room and there were 3 people using the gas stove in the kitchen, and the sink and the pantry, me and two other families.

 

You can imagine how many nappies I had with the 2 girls and the only way I could get them dry was to hang them in the woodshed, and the men would go down to get wood and wipe their hands clean on my clean nappies.  I had to just brush them off because I couldn't get them dry.  It rained for 6 weeks after they were born.

 

And then of course to make things more joyful, I had Haggis's 3 sons from his first marriage come and live with us, which was rather awkward.  I didn't get on very well but I did with Ian.  He and I are still good friends and always will be.  He still calls me Mum.  The other 2 weren't close unfortunately for me or for them or for anybody.  Their own mother was still alive which made it more awkward, than if you are a step-mother and the other mother is still alive.  Well I think it would because their own mother has a certain amount of control over them even though they were growing up.  I had the 3 of them and Sue and Lena, then I became pregnant with Allen[b1950]

 

I had a few upsets with my stepsons, but that has been wiped out of my life, so I don't have to worry about that anymore, they [not Ian]wiped themselves out when their father died.  So I didn't worry about it.  It made me pretty sick.  I can tell you that it upset me because I had been so close to them all while their father was alive and as soon as he died, they just dumped me, grandchildren and all. They all called me Nana and treated me like a grandmother and then when Haggis wasn't there, they didn't want to know me. So I think the best thing I did was to dump them, you know sort of get rid of them.  I wouldn't say that, thats not very nice, but its true,they did treat me badly.  I thought I did, perhaps I'm wrong, I thought I had treated them as grandchildren and the boys as sons, its hard to say.  I've come to the conclusion the older I get, the less I worry about these sorts of things

 

Lena spoke about her grandson who had recently been confirmed so I asked her “Do you believe in God?

 

Oh yes, you have to believe in something, thats what I feel and God has been what I believed in since was a wee child. I don't know about my children, whether they do or not, I've never asked them.

 

How do you feel about life now?

 

When I introduced my first husband's father to my father, it was at the Savoy Hotel, I must have been talking about something and my father said to King's [name of her husband? King Thistlethwaite?] 'she's a real red-ragger, she should have been a politician”.  I don't think I should have been a politician, I was quite happy to be a wife and mother once I got out of the Army.  There were times when I wasn't happy to be a a wife and a mother, but 90% of the time I was.  I don't like being a widow, I don't like being alone. I suppose I should say it doesn't worry me.  I don't get upset or can't sleep or anything like that, but when you live with a person for a long time, and your still getting on well ¡K..

 

Additional material

 

One issue that came up during the interview was dentists.  Lena remarked that she was “nervous as a kitten going to the dentist.  However she could not recall any incidents in her life that made her nervous.  She felt that she had passed this onto her son Allen, who had not seen a dentist since he was 11 despite having 2 broken teeth.  The visit to the dentist was the result of denture problems, she complained of biting the lips and mouth.  The dentist was amazed that she had the same set of dentures since she first got them about 30 years ago.  Many older poeople take their dentures out at night and as a result their jaws shrink, whereas she leaves hers in.

 

Lena's only health complaint was a ruptured bowel and a ruptured gall bladder; the operation nearly killed her; this was in 1955.  She said “other than old age complaints thats all there is.  I can't eat this and I can't eat that mainly because I have this ruptured bowel; it affects my tummy but it didn't worry me until about 5 years ago.  If I get nervous or upset it upsets my tummy; goung to the dentist upsets my tummy.

 

The actual condition Lena suffers from is called diverticulitis.

 

Lena's house was fitted with special railings in the bathroom to make it easier to lift herself.

 

She is slightly overweight but apart from this she appeared to be in good health, both physically and mentally.  She also has a strong social network with her children.  She lives next door to a woman she has been friends since she was twenty-two.

 

Although the subject of death was never broached, the process of disengagement was evident.  Lena had given away her wedding and engagement rings, the few photographs that she had, her marriage certificate and everything else that she called memorabilia.  She does not travel often and finds it uncomfortable.  She has stopped going to church and she likes to keep a routine about life.

 

Although at the beginning of the interview Lena was not sure that she could remember very much, as she recalled after another, each memory triggers new ones.  She was quite surprised about this.  Frequently incidents were able to be pictured clearly in her mind, but details were missing.

 

Lena's dream was to be a good wife and mother.  This dream was shaped not only by the society and time that she lived in, but also by her early relationships with her mother, who was referred to as if in the background, and her father who she was very close to.  Her pain at being unable to be a good mother to her stepsons shows conflict with this dream

 

Places where she grew up

 

Orabanda, Balingup, Sth Fremantle, East Fremantle

 

Primary schools

 

Princess May 1915/16, 18/19

 

1Beaconsfield 1920

 

What other places have you lived in?

 

Well I can't really remember Orabanda.  I think I was four when we lived there, Gerald was a baby.

 

My parents bought a fruit orchard at Balingup, and we lived there for 3 years until WW1 started, and then of course the export of fruit and vegetables and all of that sort of things went kaput, so they got off the farm.  Dad had been working at Menzies I think and my mother and my father's brother ran the farm.  When the war came everything went kaput and we shifted, I think it must have been Fremantle.

 

I can remember walking to and from school at Balingup.  I had a raincoat and my mother used to say to me, walk to school without your shoes and socks on, when you get to school put your schools and socks on and put your raincoat on.  She'd make sure I was properly dressed before I went off to school.  But Theo , my brother, wouldn't wear his raincoat.  He'd wear it until we got away from the farm, then he'd take it off and get sopping wet, because he reckoned his raincoat smelt like fish.

 

 

When we walking home we used to walk down the main road, and there were orchards and farms on both sides of the road, and he used to climb over the right hand side and pinch watermelons and rock melons.  I'd get into trouble because id get dirty because I'd have to carry the melons.[Balingup is still a farming area]

 

It was an awful place for mud, shocking. I can remember that park, and the big house.

 

Kangaroo tail soup, I can remember tipping a bowl of it into the fire.  It was an accident ,if my memory serves me right.  I was a bit of a tomboy I suppose having brothers, only Theo and Gerald at that stage.  Your Grandfather [Colin], I don't think he was born on the farm, I can't remember.  Theo and I were there, he used to have to chop wood.  I used to have to go and hold ,fix  and gather it up for him and kept putting this finger out when when he was chopping. And he said to me “if you do that again I'll chop your finger” and he did you see this one's a bit crooked.  He used to go out shooting birds and rabbits, and we had cherry trees,peaches and apples on the farm.

 

Mother had a huge kitchen, like an oven in the summer.  If I shut my eyes,I can see the building and the house, rows nd rows of steps up to the front, built along the side of a hill and all down there was the orchard, and up here was the house.  It was a big house, and my father's brother, Sam, was an orchardist by profession.

 

I can't remember where we went after the orchard.  It mus have been Sth Fremantle because Dad went to work at the smelters

ADELE NORRIS COPELAND

Adele Norris Copeland, nee Clarke Born 28-12-21

I was born in Moonee Ponds in a dwelling behind a second hand shop owned by Mum's sister and her husband

Dad had already bought the fruit shop at Ormond so Mum had to wait till I was born to follow. I was 2 weeks old when we went to live behind the fruit shop - one bedroom and four children.

I used to get upset when Mum and Dad used to say they got me from a second hand shop. Probably the same shop today would be called an Antique Shop.

Two years later we moved to a new house in Dalmore Av, Dad's two brothers Perc and Bill, both carpenters, built it.

Dad used a horse and cart to go to the market. I can't remember it but Vera and Ron do.

Bill was born when I was 5 1/2. When I was 12 we bought a new house - brick and for those days very flash - Dad bought another house in Dalmore Av. - he owned the three houses and the business.

We all went to Ormond State School. Ron & Vera went to Brighton Tech. Bill went to Mordialloc High. All for a very short time. We'd all left school by the time we were 15..

Dad bought a grocers shop two shops down from the fruit shop. I think what happened was the grocer who was there moved further down the street, so Dad took this shop over to create a few more jobs for the family. This was right in the Depression. He put Ron in the grocers and his brother Perc (a carpenter who couldn't get work) in the fruit shop.

In those days people didn't pay the grocer - mostly paid monthly if at all. abut the fruit shop was cash - the debts got so high in the grocers, that in the end Dad had to put it in a debt collectors hands. After a while when Dad didn't hear from the Debt Collectors he went to the city to his office and found he'd gone - Dad had no way of knowing who had paid and who hadn't because all his account books were gone too. There had been more than one thousand pounds owing. Probably most of it would never have been paid anyway, as people used to just move house - I heard this story from Dad many times.

Dad was part of the first co-op buying schemes - It was then called Melray but is now Composite Buyers.

Crofts, a big chain store grocer took over - Ron came back to the fruit shop and Uncle Perc opened his own fruit shop in Surrey Hills. Dad's other brother Bill also opened a fruit shop.

We had a car always that I can remember, and Mum and Dad did have a few good holidays, always with the Duus's. Ron was working in the shop when war broke out and joined straight away. His number was VX 1264 - more I'm sure to get away from the shop than any patriotic reasons. He was amongst the first lot to leave Australia and went to England first, then to the Middle East and was taken Prisoner of War - taken first to Italy then to Germany. He was amongst the last to get back to Australia.

Vera worked in the shop till she married and the part time for a long time after.

I worked in the shop - Dad always praised me saying I was the best worker he ever had, so of course I worked all the harder! Bill came in the shop off and on, but never really liked it.

The shop ran our lives a lot. We never had much time off and the hours were long. Ten o'clock closing in the summer - 7 o'clock in the winter and open all day Saturdays. The reason Dad was so successful was because he had the family working for him.

I used to go ice-skating once week - most of our outings were to relations - to Bacchus Marxh to Mum's brother's - the cousins were all older than me- so were more friends of Vera's and Ron's.

Mum's sister lived in Deepdeene and we used to go there for Sunday tea or they'd come to our place. Also Dad's brother's family visited a lot. Uncle Bill's daughter Pearl and I were good friends.

When I was 16 I was bridesmaid at a wedding - Dad's half-sister  (Louise) (I don't know much about her), but Dad was very good to her family of sons after she died). Anyway, one of these boys Tas Smith married Doris Firth, the daughter of a very big caterer in Footscray and when they asked me to be bridesmaid it was very exciting, especially as I'd been very excluded from Vera's wedding when I was 14 1/2.

The reception was held in the Footscray Town Hall - they did become rather snobby - we last saw them at Bill's funeral.

Looking back, I think it did a lot to help me overcome an inferiority complex.

I was 18 when the war started. Mum used to have a lot of interstate boys home for tea on Sundays. One Sunday, Vera heard that a lot of interstate boys had been taken to the Caulfield Race Course (it had been turned into an Army Camp - so she baked cakes and packed cigarettes and things to take there - she asked Mavis and I to go with her, but we said no - we were meeting some boys - so she went on her own. She said they all looked so lonely and young - she asked if they had any leave to come back home - there were 4 or 5 came with her - When Mavis and I got home and saw all these good looking soldiers playing billiards with Dad! It was very exciting - I married one of them and Mavis another! Vera always said she found both our husbands for us. We walked back to the camp with them already paired off that same night. After that every bit of leave was spent at our place. Then they were moved to Seymour. Dad took us up there on Sundays or they had leave and came down - (sometimes without leave). This was in 1940 - we decided we would marry when the war finished - believing then it would only last months. Col & Frank were then sent overseas to the Middle East. We decided to become engaged and Col sent the money £15 - for the ring. Uncle Ray took me to a jeweller friend to buy it - in 1942 he came back - The troops were returned because the Japanese war had started. They arrived in Adelaide and from there I received a telegram "arrange wedding for Saturday - May 2nd" - Don't know hom Mum managed, but she did - a sit down meal for about 40 people - there were about 6 soldiers in the unit all married at the same time. Roy & Sylve Arnold were one of the couples. We all kept in touch till after your Dad died - but of course I still stayed friends with Roy & Sylve.

 We didn't have much time together  - a few leaves and I went to Bonegilla a few eekends while they were stationed there. Then they were sent to Darwin - by this time I (and two other brides) was expecting a baby. Col returned just in time for the birth 21-11-43 then back to camp. Very little leave and then was sent to New Guinea. Gerald was 18 months old when he returned.

During this time Dad bought the orchard at Wantirna South and put a manager in the shop. Mum never really liked the orchard - Dad loved it. There was no water, phone elecricity or even a septic tank. Dad had a lot to do with the Progress Association who were working hard to get these things but it was after the war before they came.

Dad was also an on-course bookmaker. He was partners with a Jack Doran who held the licence. I forget how it happened but Jack Doran finished owing Dad a lot of money then died before it was aid and Dad couldn't get it from the estate.

Your Dad was quite willing to go into the fruit shop instead of returning to his trade (a Wireless Technician). Ron had nothing else - so Dad talked Ray out of the Fire Brigade (the lure of big money to be made) Vera was very against it and Ray always regretted it.

So the arrangement was Dad & Ray to run the farm and Ron & Col the shop - it didn't last long as Ron's nerves were in a bad way after being PoW for so long. So he went to the orchard and Ray to the shop. We didn't make a lot of money, but we decided by the time we had four children we wanted to get out on our own. (we had 3 children living in the rooms behind the shop). We had built a house in Tyrone St. Ormond and it was there we had Ken. We had a hard job convincing Dad that we wanted to get out. We sold our house and bought a fruit shop in Waverly Road East Malvern. I think we were much happier there working for ourselves. After two years there we had worked the business up to its limit so decided we'd buy a General Store - We tried for the Wantirna South Stroe because even in war years I'd written and told your Dad how I'd love it, or a place like it. Anyway it was not for sale, so we looked at a lot of others and couldn't find anything suitable (you kids were going to Murrumbeena School while we stayed at the farm deciding where to go). Dad and your Dad heard of this shop at Balwyn and went to see it - liked it. so we decided to shelve the General Store idea for a few years.

We had a good business in Balwyn, but after three years heard that the Store at W. South was for sale so made another move.

We were ther just 6 weeks when your Dad died. The only complainthe'd ever mad was that he got a lot of indigestion. He was always sucking Quik Ease. He only went to see the Doctor at Veteran Affairs because I used to say maybe he had an ulcer. He saw them for the first time on the Monday 14th May - came home laughing saying what a wasted day as all he'd done was fill in forms and couldn't remember all the dates of his children's birth.

The next day after a game of golf - he died of a heart attack. I never found out  whether he'd really been examined by a doctor or not. We were just so lucky it was accepted as a heart attack due to his war service. If he had not been in to see them the day before I'm not sure I'd have got the War Widow's Pension.

With a lot of help I got the Milk Bar opened and the Store sold.

From the Milk Bar to Ringwood.

My first job there was for Norm Pincott in East Ringwood in a fruit shop - for a year - then to Manageress of Ringwood High School Canteen (about 3 years) then to Ray Bullock - the opened the Milk Bar when Ray moved to the new shop - sold that - back to Bullocks' - then back to the Milk Bar in Wantirna South - sold that Freehold as well this time. Back to Bullocks again - then when they sold out worked at Holeproof  for 6 weeks (terrible). About this time I bought the house in Bayswater and sold the Ringwood one. Worked in a supermarket in Stud Road for a few months, then to Ferntree Gully High canteen - there three years then moved to Woori Yallock and from there worked another three years at Mooroolbark High canteen.

Gave that up and worked another year at Hazlemere Hospital. Then took on the mail run with Fred - sold the Woori Yallock  house and moved to Alpine Bvd., Launching Place. Cleaned the kindergarten for four years.

We had five years in Alpine - very happy years till Fred got sick - sold Alpine bought the house in Mooroolbark owned it for 10 weeks before coming to the village - looks like the end of the road, as far as moving-